SGA: An Essay on Keller

[gnine]

This wasn't meant to be quite so long, it kinda got away from me. xparrot and I have been spending a lot of far too much time discussing one of our growing frustrations with SGA: the character of Keller. Finally, enough was enough, and I realized I just had to get it all down on paper, to get it out of my system, if nothing else. And thus, this monstrosity was born:

A Question of Motivation

First off, I want to be clear: this isn't meant as character bashing. It's a question, a fundamental issue with the character that's been bothering me more and more.

Also important to establish right off the bat: I was never a particularly big Carson fan. I didn't dislike him, but he was in no way my favorite. I say this to make it clear that while yes, I was sorry to see him go, I wasn't heartbroken, and his loss didn't bias me against Keller. Just the reverse: when I first heard that Jewel Staite would be replacing him, I was ecstatic. I loved her in Firefly, enjoyed her portrayal of Kaylee-Wraith in "Instinct," and was enthusiastic to see what she would add to the Atlantis assemble. Sadly, while I continue to love the actress, I don't think the writers have delivered in terms of character.

That said, on to the question: What is Keller doing on Atlantis?

This is really a two-fold inquiry: Why did Atlantis/SGC/IOA bring her on board? and What was Keller's own motivation for going there? For all the other major (and many of the minor) characters, we can easily answer at least one of those two questions, and in many cases, both. But Keller?

I've seen several people cite her ordinariness and her lack of confidence as pluses. Something "normal", "believable" amidst a cast of "superheroes." In other shows, I might agree. But what place does "normal" have on Atlantis? As your Head of Medicine? At that young an age? In that prestigious, not to mention dangerous, a place? She better be damn special, better outshine them all. Because that's how you get and retain a position such as that. Atlantis is not a mundane place and neither are the people on it. Is Keller?

People argue that Keller is no worse off-world/in battle/outside of her standard duties, etc. than Carson or early Rodney. And I agree. She's no worse, but she's no better, either. And she *should* be. Why? No double standard, just a fundamental difference: Carson and Rodney both were on Atlantis from the beginning. That first year was different. They didn't even know if there would be other gates in Pegasus, or if they'd ever need to go off-world. Additionally, they were both *vital* to the mission. No one (except perhaps Carter, who couldn't be spared at the time) knew more about Ancient tech than Rodney, and Carson had the gene, the second strongest manifestation of it after John. Plus there was his research on the gene therapy. Weighed against these skills, their lack of experience in the field was moot.

Keller, on the other hand, joined the project late in the game. By the time she came, everyone knew what they were getting into. Medical personnel had been sent off-world multiple times, not to mention there were all the dangers on Atlantis itself. Back in "Intruder", when Carson is picking new staff, he's bemoaning the fact that all these people are more qualified than him, especially noting their physical prowess: "hobbies include judo, horseback riding and base-jumping". Totally reasonable. The SGC is looking to recruit civilians with varied skill sets, beyond their chosen field. People who will do well in *any* situation Pegasus can possibly throw at them. And Pegasus certainly pitches a lot of extreme ones. What are Keller's "extra" skills?

Then there's her age. Being SG, which is notoriously bad about giving characters' ages, we can't know for sure how old she is. In at least one case (David Hewlett) we know the character is meant to be the same age as the actor. If this holds true with Keller/Jewel, that puts her somewhere around twenty-six. *Maybe* they could bump that up to thirty, but even so, that's awfully young to be the head of anything, especially the Head of Medicine at an international, highly elite facility. Keller mentions skipping grades (which one would assume would be true of virtually everyone on Atlantis) but still, head positions are usually based not just on smarts, but *experience*. 'Quarantine' suggests she got her bachelor's at seventeen. Which means she might have gotten her MD by twenty, so she has six years' experience tops, including her internship. Every other position of authority on Atlantis has been filled by people in their mid-thirties or older.

Now, they might overlook Keller's lack of field experience/physical ability, not to mention her youth, if she had something else going for her. Something beyond 'competent doctor'. But so far we have never been given an example of any special skill, nothing that makes her "vital" or "unique" to the project. Yes, she's a good doctor, I'm not denying that. But there are a LOT of good doctors out there. What separates her from the crowd? Why did the SGC single her out? And not just for any position, but a position high in the command structure, later granting her Head Medical Officer of *Atlantis*?

Moving on to the second part of the question: Keller's own motivation.

When we first meet Keller, she's *begging* Elizabeth to find her a replacement, and Elizabeth denies her request. Leaving aside the question of *why* Elizabeth has faith in her , if Keller didn't want to be in charge, didn't feel she could handle it, why did she take the position? One that placed her one step away from being in command? In a place as dangerous and unpredictable as Atlantis, the odds that you're going to have to step up and replace your boss are *high*.

Personal ambition could explain it (like with Kavanagh, who is a much greater coward, but keeps returning regardless because his ego demands it. He believes, however misguided, that he's got the chops). But Keller wants *out* of command, eager to give it away. The very opposite of ambition.

Carson, beyond the needs of his gene, comes because of his research. He states in "Hide and Seek" that the ATA gene therapy couldn't be tested back on Earth, too many regulations. He's come to Pegasus to play mad scientist. But we haven't seen Keller really engage in research, beyond what she did in "Kindred" and "The Seed", which was borne not of personal interest but a desperate need to save Carson and the Athosians, and which was entirely based on Michael's and Carson's previous research.

Doctor Porter, in "Whispers", states she's interested in adventure, exploring, meeting strange new people. Considering Keller's reactions in "Missing" and "Trio", adventure and exploration are the furthest thing from her mind.

Conversely, she's been given several reasons to stay back on earth. Besides her seeming lack of love for danger/adventure/physical exertion, all things she should have expected to face on Atlantis, she mentions her father back in "Missing". She's "all he's got left." Why take a position as far from home as you can *ever*, in any realm of the imagination, get? One in which the odds of coming back from aren't so hot. You'd need some pretty hefty motivation to overcome that. We've never gotten even a hint.

She first tells Elizabeth she hopes the IOA will make a quick decision, she'd like to go back to being "a regular doctor." You can *never* be a regular doctor as the head of medicine on Atlantis. Circumstances won't allow it. What made her want to stay after the grand FUBAR that was "Adrift"/"Lifeline"? What made her want to go in the first place? She's certainly not military, she wasn't assigned there. Atlantis, canonically, has a very rigorous application process. Why struggle through it when you can be a regular doctor in the comfort and safety of your own galaxy?

The reason these questions matter so much to me, besides the obvious fan-urge of "I need to know," is that a character's goals, their motivations and passions, are how I form emotional attachments to them and thus to the show.

Teyla leaves her people for her people. She feels Atlantis is her people's best hope of salvation. She will do *anything* for them, and when she loses them? You can empathize, fully support her drive to find them, cheer when she's reunited, because they are her passion, her focus.

Ronon will keep fighting until "every Wraith in the galaxy is dead". When he's forced to work with them, when they get the better of him, you wince for him, you understand his anger and frustration, and you cheer when he turns the situation back around, kicks some Wraith ass, because you *know* how damn satisfied it's making him.

Rodney's passion, his life, his reason d'etre, is his science, his intelligence, his hope of a Nobel. Every brilliant break-through, every discovery, you know he's a bit closer to that goal. And when it fails him, when his smarts betray him (Trinity), it *hurts*, and the audience sighs/whimpers/writes copious amounts of tag fic.

John never really wanted to come to Atlantis in the first place, had to be talked into it, in face of resentment from his CEO. But he overcame that, made a home there, a family, people he will do *anything* for. His team, his 'family' is John's motivation. And every time he goes batshit crazy determined to help/save them, we cheer (or squee) over his loyalty, his dedication, his ability to protect what he loves.

Their traits, their passions and goals are defined and focused. A clear path for the characters to walk on, for the writers to build upon, for the fans to latch onto. What is Keller's drive, what is her character's destination? What are her obstacles and pitfalls along the way?

Her ambitions are murky and her flaws? Superfluous. Her lack of confidence, which comes and goes, could make for a character arc, except she never has to overcome it.

Professionally, she's told over and over she's doing a great job and never once has she had to face consequences for her fuck-ups. Using the nanites on Elizabeth was originally her idea, but Rodney takes all the heat for it. It's ironic that the decision Elizabeth so loathed started with the person she had such faith in, an irony that's never once touched upon. In "The Shrine", *Keller* blames herself for missing what happened to Rodney, and as his doctor, she's right. It's her fault she didn't diagnose it sooner. But no one else accuses her. On the contrary, they reassure her. Every other character on the show has had their actions questioned, doubted. Argued against. Forced to prove they're correct, or give in in the face of irrefutable fact. Most of them have had their jobs directly on the line, the IOA demanding justification.

In "The Shrine", there's disagreement, but they never outright state they think Keller's wrong, that she won't cure him. They imply it, considering their one want is the chance to say goodbye, meaning they've given up on her finding a cure, but they don't accuse her directly. When tensions run high, the characters often turn the professional personal. "Hot Zone" (John and Elizabeth), "Trinity" (John and Rodney, Teyla and Ronon), "Adrift" (John and Rodney). They get angry with each other. But in "The Shrine", no one gets angry at Keller for refusing them, just frustrated at the situation. Jeannie is the only one who can resist the Keller-love enough to directly point out her failing, that she's no closer to a solution.

Which brings us to her social "flaws". She tells Ronon it's "the story of my life", never fitting in. But she's been accepted into the inner circle of Atlantis faster and closer than any other character except Jeannie (and she's Rodney's family.) By "Doppelganger", only her third ep, Keller's already eating lunch all chummily with the team, in a way that we never saw even Carson or Elizabeth doing, let alone Zelenka, Lorne, Heightmeyer, etc. Ronon, who hasn't felt ready to be with anyone in nine years, starts expressing interest. Teyla's ready to open up to her about her personal life. Keller's feeling comfortable enough to tease Rodney about his hypochondria by "Tabula Rasa". Her interaction with Carson in "Kindred II" suggests a fairly close relationship with him before he died. She doesn't have to struggle with being accepted; they all love her and welcome her into the group immediately.

Comparatively, Sam, who already had personal connections with Rodney, never gets that close. It takes until "Kindred" for her to feel comfortable enough to invite Teyla to address her by her first name.

So much of Keller, her strengths and her weaknesses, her confidence and her competence, her social awkwardness and familiarity with the main cast, vary wildly from episode to episode. I believe most of this stems from the lack of direction. She has no clear problem to overcome, no obvious goal to strive for, no dream to fulfill, no passion to indulge in. Every writer, in every individual script, has to answer that question anew, instead of having it clearly before them. Here her purpose is as love interest, there it’s being a doctor. Here it suits the plot for her to be meek, there flirtatious is the key. It makes for screenwriter schizophrenia to the extreme, the cure for which, at least in part, would have been to answer, at the character's conception: What is she *doing* here, and why does she stay?

Comments

Re: My part two to your part one...

[sholio]

But more importantly, ... something that might hold true in a LOT of these random scientists' cases (they're too minor to really know, one way or another) is that they very likely have a vital ability, a talent in a field that no one else has.

... which is totally reading between the lines, filling in after-the-fact justifications for something that doesn't quite make sense in canon. Which is exactly what both of us, on both sides of the Keller issue, are doing -- reading between the lines of canon, ascribing motivations and reasons to the characters. I suppose where I'm coming from is, she's obviously the head of medicine, obviously there need to be reasons for that, so, based on what we've seen in canon, what might those reasons be? That's exactly what we do with all the other characters, after all. And whether we end up with a good or a bad reading of the character depends largely on where we started from -- whether we're trying to make the character make sense in light of what we're told about them, or trying to point out all the inconsistencies.

Let's take Rodney, for example. Rodney's management style is so lousy that it would make total sense for the SGC/IOA to demote him; presumably (reading between the lines, for a favorable Rodney view) he's still in charge because he's so smart. And we're frequently *told* that he's smart, but when was the last time we saw actual evidence of that supposed brilliance? (One of my WIPs is an AU in which Rodney was killed early in season 1, and one of the things I was doing was going through and trying to figure out where the expedition would be totally screwed without Rodney -- I was kind of amazed to realize that, actually, there were almost no situations that couldn't have been handled by some combination of Zelenka, Carson and Sheppard without him!) We believe in the intelligence that we're told Rodney has because we like him, but actually thinking about his accomplishments, quite a lot of them draw heavily on the work of other people (Zelenka, Jeannie, Carter, Carson), some of them were merely implementing Sheppard's or someone else's ideas, some of them failed totally. In five seasons, the only episodes I can think of in which Rodney unequivocably saved the day by doing something smart, that no one around him could have done, are "Inferno" (and even there, Noreena *might* have been able to do it) and "Progeny" (which, in the long run, didn't work -- it turned out to be a temporary fix, nothing more). That's a pretty terrible track record for a so-called "genius", especially when his supposed genius-ness is his sole reason for the position that he holds -- it certainly isn't for his administrative skills! Maybe he'd just there because Gero & co. like him ...

(Ended up having to split this, more in a minute...)

second part

[sholio]

And then there's John. John's original reason for being on the expedition was his ATA gene -- which was totally invalided by the second episode, now that half the expedition has it! So, he's still in charge because ... why? John no only doesn't demonstrate good leadership skills, but he repeatedly shows that he's not very good at it -- e.g. going off and leaving the scientists in "Defiant One", risking a whole shipful of people to save one man in "Sateda"; repeatedly disobeying orders and acting in ways that jeopardize the safety of the people under his command, not to mention his own (e.g. "Search & Rescue"). According to "Intruder", he's still there because Elizabeth pulled strings and got him a permanent assignment -- so, basically, he's an unqualified commander who holds his position because of nepotism. His own team doesn't even obey him.

But, again, we give him a pass because we like him, and accept as canonical the leadership skills that he supposedly has, despite the general lack of canon evidence to support them.

*All* of what we, as fans, are doing is reading between the lines, taking the things we like at face value while filling in our own details for the things we don't. And that's totally what I'm seeing in the Keller debate -- it's sort of a non-debate, because you could make just as convincing an argument against any of the other characters. Every fan is totally entitled to their opinion, of course, and I won't argue that in some ways, Keller hasn't been offered much to work with (e.g. she needs more quirkiness and fun, more evidence of a personal life to be a fully rounded character). She could definitely be better written. But so could the boys. And the same argument that's been constructed against her could just as easily be constructed against any of the other characters.

Re: second part

[horridporrid.livejournal.com]

And that explains why so many of these arguments against Jennifer as a good character echo arguments I've read (or heard) against Rodney as a good character. :D (Up to, and including, the writers all having man-crushes on Hewlett. *g*)

Re: second part

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

According to "Intruder", he's still there because Elizabeth pulled strings and got him a permanent assignment -- so, basically, he's an unqualified commander who holds his position because of nepotism. His own team doesn't even obey him.

But at least there's an explanation given. It doesn't make John a great hero, but there's a reason he's there, a reason which is revisited in "Intruder". There's good reasons why Sheppard is not the ideal choice for being mission commander - but there's other reasons for why he gets the job anyway.

Ditto with Rodney - his poor personal skills are a good reason for him not to have the job, but his particular expertise with Ancient tech and ZPMs (along with a long history with the SGC) got him his position, and means he gets to keep it even after Doranda.

Ditto with all the chars - they're all flawed, there are reasons why any of them are not the best person for their job. But there are also reasons why they have their position, beyond that they have the basic minimal skill set. Because they have connections, because they have particular skills, because they have experience, whatever.

Except for Keller. There are two good reasons why she shouldn't be head of medicine - she is far too inexperienced for the position, and she didn't want it. But there's never been a counter reason given, an explanation for why she got the position despite these issues. She can do the job, she's got the innate skills, but so do lots of other doctors. She's a good surgeon - but there are a lot of other good surgeons in the world. (As opposed to, say, Rodney, who is a good "astrophysicist" - but there are not a lot of good astrophysicists in the world!) Even a character like Heightmeyer, we have no idea why she was selected as base psychologist, but we never saw any particular reason why she shouldn't have the position.

I've realized that the problem I have with Keller (with the writing of Keller) is that she's a medical doctor - unlike all the blueshirts, who have weird esoteric specialties that don't have much basis in reality, she's a "regular doctor", which is an incredibly, incredibly competitive field in reality. Except on Atlantis, where people who don't want the job are promoted to the head of medicine.

Re: second part

[sholio]

Except for Keller. There are two good reasons why she shouldn't be head of medicine - she is far too inexperienced for the position, and she didn't want it.

You're placing a lot of weight on that ONE conversation between Jennifer and Elizabeth in "First Strike", where Jennifer expresses self-doubt. But Elizabeth and Carson had a very similar conversation in "Intruder", where he also expressed doubt about his ability to do his job. You seem to be taking Jennifer's self-assessment at face value: that if she says she doesn't feel fully qualified, then she must not be, despite Elizabeth's statement of confidence in her (and Elizabeth, we are repeatedly told, is a good judge of character -- even if I'm not absolutely convinced that all of Elizabeth's decisions bear this out, this is definitely supposed to be part of her character in the show).

Do you also take Carson's statement at face value -- that because he feels some of the people working under him are more qualified to run the department, then he's right, he shouldn't be in charge? I don't; we know that Carson doubts himself a lot (as does Keller). With Carson, most people seemed to find it endearing and assumed that he was selling himself short. With Keller, most people seem to find it irritating and assume that her self-assessment of her abilities is 100% accurate.

I don't find this fair. If you want to ding both Carson and Keller for doing the same thing, then fine. But don't ding Keller for it and give Carson a pass.


But there's never been a counter reason given, an explanation for why she got the position despite these issues.

Yes there is -- the EXACT same reason why John and Carson both kept their jobs in "Intruder". Because Elizabeth had faith in them and thought they could do the job. I don't remember a single other reason being EXPLICITLY given in the text of the show for either of those cases. We can infer a bunch of reasons, and the reasons that we come up with often depend on highly subjective factors, but that's what the SHOW GAVE US. Beyond that, it's all inference.


Even a character like Heightmeyer, we have no idea why she was selected as base psychologist, but we never saw any particular reason why she shouldn't have the position.

But I don't believe that we've been SHOWN any reason why Keller shouldn't have the job, either. It is true that her youth hasn't been raised as an issue, and perhaps it should have been. But the fact that it hasn't come up as an issue implies that no one has a problem with it. Rodney was a child genius, John's about the last person to raise doubts about another's qualifications, Elizabeth clearly had faith in Keller from the beginning, Teyla and Ronon don't infere with the inner workings of the Atlantis hierarchy as a general rule -- so among the main characters, there's really no one who would logically raise an objection, and we haven't seen the office politics of the medical division even when Carson was in charge. (It might make an interesting fic, though!)

The thing is -- this kind of gap exists in ALL of the characters' lives. This is what fanfic is for. We never saw anyone reacting to Carson's death beyond a few scenes at the end of Sunday, but I don't think it's logical to infer from that omission that the characters are sociopaths. We never saw whether the civilians in Atlantis had trouble accepting their new military overlords (Sheppard, then Carter) at the start of season four, but I don't think we can infer anything from this about military-civilian relations on Atlantis except that the writers just didn't SHOW us their reactions. You're taking those same omissions in Keller's life that ALL the characters suffer from, and using them to build a case against her.

She's not my favorite character on the show -- I like her, but I like the team more. But I keep wanting to defend her because I really feel like she's being done wrong! *g*

Re: second part

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

You're placing a lot of weight on that ONE conversation between Jennifer and Elizabeth in "First Strike", where Jennifer expresses self-doubt. But Elizabeth and Carson had a very similar conversation in "Intruder", where he also expressed doubt about his ability to do his job.

Carson jokes the candidates are all more qualified than he is, and complaining about choosing between them. He doesn't suggest that any of them actually take over from him - presumably, if he'd wanted to leave, he would have. Elizabeth isn't forcing him to stay. While as Keller actually is asking Elizabeth to find someone to replace her, and Elizabeth brushes her off.

ETA: I also have to point out that the Jennifer-Elizabeth conversation in "First Strike" is Keller's very first scene, her establishing moment as a character; I don't think it's amiss to put a fair bit of weight on it. The first thing we hear about her is that she doesn't think she's qualified for her job - and Elizabeth disagrees, but doesn't offer proof.

Do you also take Carson's statement at face value -- that because he feels some of the people working under him are more qualified to run the department, then he's right, he shouldn't be in charge?

Actually, yeah, I could totally believe some people under him could do as well or better. But Carson doesn't promote any of them - he whines about their qualifications, but if he wanted to step down, he could. He doesn't.

What confuses me about Keller is that it's presented like she doesn't have the option to step down. That no one else wants the position, that no one else can do the job but her. There really aren't any better-qualified doctors on Atlantis? Really?

Yes there is -- the EXACT same reason why John and Carson both kept their jobs in "Intruder". Because Elizabeth had faith in them and thought they could do the job.

Okay, point! Am I allowed to wish that Elizabeth's belief in Keller was based on more than blind faith? At least with Carson and John, she had both worked with them for a year and had seen them do their jobs and presumably been impressed with their performance (possibly questionably, but whatever.) Keller had done nothing to earn Elizabeth's trust (at least not anything that we're told about). I guess you can blame this on Elizabeth being an idiot - that's okay, I'll accept that, there's a lot of supporting evidence that Elizabeth is an idiot. It's still bad writing, damn it!

You're taking those same omissions in Keller's life that ALL the characters suffer from, and using them to build a case against her.

I do think that Keller has more omissions than most of the other characters - but I might be biased.

Gnine has a theory about this - it might be in her comments somewhere, I'm not sure what she's posted where - what it basically comes down to is that a character introduced later into a series has more of a burden of proof than a character introduced from the start. Because we the audience bond differently with characters we know from the beginning, versus ones introduced into an already developed dynamic; we're more inclined to be hostile. So Keller is being subjected to a double standard, but it's not because she's a female character, or a doctor, but because she's a newcomer. The reason so many of us here are anti-Keller is that the writers are not handling her properly for a new character. And I don't feel like defending their mistakes!

Re: second part

[sholio]

what it basically comes down to is that a character introduced later into a series has more of a burden of proof than a character introduced from the start. Because we the audience bond differently with characters we know from the beginning, versus ones introduced into an already developed dynamic; we're more inclined to be hostile. So Keller is being subjected to a double standard, but it's not because she's a female character, or a doctor, but because she's a newcomer.

Oh, absolutely! Actually, I think that's the best point anyone has made so far. Fans ABSOLUTELY do this. It's a huge part of why I didn't like Jonas in SG1, or Alex in Invisible Man. It's irrational and unfair and totally, totally a part of fanning. The new character feels like an interloper and they're resented for taking screen time away from established characters. It has nothing to do with the character's personal qualities and everything to do with the fact that they're not established and they feel out of place in the established cast.

And I honestly think I'd feel better about this whole debate if people would just admit that this is a big factor in what's going on here, rather than trying to rationally prove that the character is poorly written, poorly acted, poorly conceived, etc. This makes those of us who have warmed up to her feel as if we are being criticized, because if this character is objectively bad, and we still like her, what does that imply about us?

The only place where I'm going to disagree is that I really do think it comes down more to fan reaction than to the writing for the character. Granted, mistakes were made (to use politics-speak), but I'm really not sure if there was any way they could have written Keller that would have won over the fanbase with the character as conceived. Maybe the problem is that the character concept is flawed, but when I look back on, say, Jonas, I'm not sure what they could have done with that character to make the fans like him.

Re: second part

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

It's irrational and unfair and totally, totally a part of fanning. The new character feels like an interloper and they're resented for taking screen time away from established characters. It has nothing to do with the character's personal qualities and everything to do with the fact that they're not established and they feel out of place in the established cast.

But...it's not that irrational. It's part of being human; we have trouble adjusting to new things replacing what we were used to. And part of writing a TV show well is writing to this, is making sure you account for this. Making sure you craft a new character that the fans can accept, putting extra work into their development.

There are always going to be some fans who will never accept a new char - but no char is beloved by all fans. The writers have been able to manage substitutions before - Ronon's a replacement char and most of us have embraced him. And the total retooling of SG-1 in s9-10 did win a lot of fans over.

This makes those of us who have warmed up to her feel as if we are being criticized, because if this character is objectively bad, and we still like her, what does that imply about us?

Yeah, that's always the trouble with these debates - because it always feels so personal, like you're being judged for your tastes. I don't think the Keller char is exactly objectively bad - just, um, not very good. And those of you defending her here, I think are seeing the positive parts of the character, while having a higher tolerance than most for ignoring/explaining the not-good parts. (The thing is, the character Keller that you seem to see, does seem to be a decent character. It's just not the character I'm seeing when I watch the show!)

The only place where I'm going to disagree is that I really do think it comes down more to fan reaction than to the writing for the character. Granted, mistakes were made (to use politics-speak), but I'm really not sure if there was any way they could have written Keller that would have won over the fanbase with the character as conceived.

But I think the character concept is, in a large part, what the writing is. Putting aside that I actually liked Jonas (not as much as Daniel but I thought he was sweet) - I was primed to like Keller from the beginning. I wasn't that attached to Carson, I was looking forward to seeing Jewel Staite in the show. I actually enjoyed her well enough in her first few episodes (even though I was baffled from the very beginning by what she was doing there - I kept expecting explanation, for some special skill to be revealed, and got increasingly frustrated as nothing came up) but the more I saw of her, the more bored with her I became; and the more screen-time she got, the more I began to resent her for being there instead of my team. I didn't so resent Carter, and I don't so resent Woolsey (on the contrary, I want to see more of Woolsey, maybe even at the expense of team scenes!)

A lot of the people who commented on this post say the same - that they didn't mind her at first, but have come to dislike her - or even that they still like her, but have problems with her, and this post explained them. So I can't help but think that there are genuine problems in the writing of her, or in her basic concept, beyond a stubborn and unaccepting fanbase.

Re: second part

[gnine.livejournal.com]

So, just a quick response more (oh bed...someday...really)...and wow, looking at the beginning of this sentence...oh dear...watch the grammar slip away.

Anyway, the essay she's referring to...which of course I haven't yet posted, is something I'm thinking of tweaking slightly and actually posting on Fanthropology. Not in terms of SGA, but in fandom in general.

Cause I think, in part, it is a duty the writers must over come. As neechan says, it IS human nature, to compare, to question, to have a knee-jerk reaction to change. But, and this is somewhat where my previous essay comes in, I think what's important to do is have the character who's coming in have two clear things established: why the show needs them and why the other characters need/accept them. Does it always work, do they always succeed. Debatable. Take Alex, for example. We were not particularly fond of her, especially on first watching. Second rewatching, a few years later, we found her actually amusing/tolerable at times. For a simple reason. Do they really give her a good reason to be joining the show. Meeeeh. It's kinda flimsy, and kinda random and you're like, baby? Okaaaay? But in terms of the other characters (and this is where we started liking her more the second time around). The other characters...like a lot of the audience, they don't really like her either. And they speculate why's she there. Their own group kinda closes in, never fully reaches out to her...at times, when she has the better equipment, etc, doing the Mary Sue thing, all kick ass...they kinda mock it. The characters we know from the beginning, the ones we *do* like, are voicing our doubts, are questioning her place, and having to struggle with excepting her, just like the fans. Did it work, as I said, debatable. But on rewatching, seeing that arc play out, she was more tolerable. New characters are usually questioned, doubted by the already established ones. They have to prove themselves to the present cast. And as (hopefully, if the writing is handled well) the cast we're used to, our proxies, learn to accept, so, too, the fans.

Err...I really actually have no idea if a word of that made sense. Sleeeep. Yes, sleep now. Um...*hangs head* I suck so SO much ^_- Oh GOD, this is why I need to go back to school oh so BAD! I miss seminars and discussions so badly it HURTS! ^_-

Re: second part

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Umm, also, it's 6:20 AM here, so if either me or Gnine have come across too strong - we're really, really sorry, and are going to bed now and might be nicer in the morning. Or at least coherent. Good grief.

Sorry for fucking with your love of the show, in all its silly badly written dorktastic glory. I hope it's not permanent...

Re: second part

[tipper-green.livejournal.com]

Whoa, whoa, whoa -- there's one thing I think folks are forgetting here. The reason people are promoted to positions of leadership aren't because they're the smartest or the cleverest, but because they are *really good leaders*. The one thing that Keller has been absolutely consistent on is her leadership. The people in that infirmary follow her orders instantly and clearly respect her. THAT'S why Elizabeth put her in that role. When she's there, she commands all of the people around her, and I've never seen her uncertain in that role. Being a good leader is a huge part of being the head of a department. So, yes, there are lots of great surgeons, there are lots of bad surgeons, but being the head of a department is about you're ability to command your peers, and she has never shown any issues in that regard (except for that private moment of self-doubt with Elizabeth).

Also, huge load of assumptions about whether she is experienced or not. You're basing that purely on her *age*, whereas, based on her skill set (namely, being capable of performing brain surgery), she's more than experienced. You don't graduate from medical school and suddenly becoming a qualified neurosurgeon. My brother is one, and it took him close to 15 years to get to the point where he could perform that sort of surgery on his own. She is the head surgeon, as clearly demonstrated by the first episode. You just cannot assume, based on her appearance, that she's not experienced enough when her skill set clearly demonstrates that she is. That's a discriminatory attitude.

Re: second part

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Also, huge load of assumptions about whether she is experienced or not. You're basing that purely on her *age*, whereas, based on her skill set (namely, being capable of performing brain surgery), she's more than experienced.

I'm basing it on her age, and that she's never once mentioned working at any other hospital or facility, much less in the senior position. And yes, in this case, I'm applying a double standard to her vs Carson - because Jewel Staite is over ten years younger than Paul McGillion.

I try to explain myself here, but I'm not sure I'm managing it clearly...it's in my head but I'm having trouble wording it.

You don't graduate from medical school and suddenly becoming a qualified neurosurgeon. My brother is one, and it took him close to 15 years to get to the point where he could perform that sort of surgery on his own.

This is exactly my point. From Keller's apparent age and from the medical experience Keller has mentioned (none) - Keller has gotten as good as she has purely by natural surgical talent - and they let her head up Atlantis medicine based entirely on belief in that talent, not that she'd proved herself in another setting. The problem I have with "Adrift" is that, based on what she had said to Elizabeth and how Elizabeth responds, I had the impression it was the first time Keller had ever managed such a triage situation.

Keller performed admirably in "Adrift", I'm not denying that. But why would an untested doctor be put in the position that she had to manage triage for the first time, without supervision, on Atlantis? Why are there no more experienced doctors around?

You mentioned your brother - how long was it before he was allowed into a position of authority? Even if he had the ability, didn't he have to prove himself, working under other senior doctors?

Even Rodney McKay had put in years of working at the SGC before they gave him his position on Atlantis. We aren't ever given Carson's history - but he is definitely old enough to have gathered a fair bit of experience; he's not unusually young for his position. Keller is, but it's never addressed.

I can think of a few other unusually young but highly skilled doctors in scifi - Simon Tam, Julian Bashir. In both cases, a big deal was made about the fact that they were extraordinarily gifted, as well as extraordinarily ambitious. And people still questioned their ability to handle the responsibility (hey, if I was going under the knife and my doctor was 26, I'd be a bit hesitant!) Keller went to school early, and she is a good doctor (I'm not denying that) but it's never implied she's amazingly brilliant (I'm talking dozens of papers published, rock-star status) and she's not that ambitious, seeing as she didn't want the position to begin with.

And I find it insulting to real doctors, who must put in, as you say, years of experience to become as good as they are, that Keller managed to make it to head of medicine on Atlantis at her tender age, without anyone ever questioning her ability (save her herself), without having to try extra special damn hard, proving herself every step of the way.

(To clarify - I don't think it's Keller who's being insulting - it's the writing of her. The writers could have provided some reason for why Elizabeth trusted her - or else just said she was 35 and happens to look really young for her age! But they mention her inexperience and handwave over how she overcomes it, and that's what's bothering me.)

Re: second part

[tipper-green.livejournal.com]

I'm basing it on her age, and that she's never once mentioned working at any other hospital or facility, much less in the senior position.

And that's exactly my point. You're assuming she doesn't have that experience based only on the fact that she looks young and she doesn't talk about where she gets her experience from. I don't mean to pick, but that's absoluately ridiculous. Of *course* she has that experience. Surgical talent isn't something you're naturally gifted at; there is *no such thing* as being naturally gifted at surgery. That's about as realistic a statement as saying you can cure someone with pixie dust. Surgery, especially neurosurgery, is something you have to be trained to do. You don't get given a saw and told, "hey, you look like you have a steady hand, go ahead and cut into that patient's brain, will you?" That argument makes absolutely no sense.

She HAS to have that experience. There's no "maybe" in that statement. She has it because she does it. Elizabeth made her chief of medicine; she didn't tell her she could now do neurosurgery. If she didn't have that experience, she wouldn't be cutting into Elizabeth's brain in that episode--she would have delegated that responsibility to someone else. You have to accept that, practically, she has all the experience to pull off that kind of surgery. If she didn't, she COULD NOT DO IT.

As for why make her chief? Because, as Elizabeth says, everyone in the infirmary looks up to her. They respect her to lead. And that is ALL YOU NEED. If her staff didn't respect her, if the nurses and doctors said she couldn't handle the position, they would have said so. Instead, Elizabeth clearly states that they think Keller is doing a great job (which directly counters you're statement that the writers didn't give us a reason why Elizabeth trusts her. THAT'S why she trusts her). The only one who isn't sure is Keller herself. You can not take Keller's own personal self-doubt expressed in a private moment with a friend and make that the end all be all of whether she can handle the position. Demonstrably, she handles the position brilliantly.

And speaking of brilliant, that's another assumption. You said the show hasn't implied that she is brilliant. First off, being on Atlantis? HUGE implication. They're not shipping mediocre people to this base. Second? RODNEY in Adrift calls her brilliant. Has he ever said that about anyone other than Carter? No. He doesn't say that lightly, and he called her brilliant. I'm not sure you can get a greater implication of her level of intelligence than that.

And it is not insulting to real doctors, any more than in any other profession, to have someone younger put in charge, ESPECIALLY, since that role requires more than just a medical or clinical background. That role requires being able to lead and administer, and most scientists (in fact, all scientists I have ever met) hate the idea. But it always goes back to the crux--the Jennifer runs that infirmary extremely well and her people respect her. That's all you need to know to determine how good a chief of medicine she is.

(By the by, I don't know why this argument is getting my blood boiling, but I hope you're having fun with it, since that's why I keep responding...I'm really getting a kick out of this, and I hope you and gnine aren't taking it personally. I sort of love arguing.)

Re: second part

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

You're assuming she doesn't have that experience based only on the fact that she looks young and she doesn't talk about where she gets her experience from. I don't mean to pick, but that's absoluately ridiculous. Of *course* she has that experience. Surgical talent isn't something you're naturally gifted at; there is *no such thing* as being naturally gifted at surgery.

This is totally true. But I think I'm justified in asking how she got that experience.

This isn't just in the show; it's a double standard that exists in real life. If I were about to get complicated brain surgery, and Dr. Carson Beckett walks in, I'd be, 'Great to meet you, nice blue eyes, oh, are you Scottish?'

If Dr. Jennifer Keller walked in - I would raise an eyebrow, and find a polite way to ask if she was really the senior doctor, and if so, was this her first surgery or what? Because 26 year old neurosurgeons are very unusual. I'd need to know why I should trust her.

I see a fundamental problem with Keller's basic character concept. She has two possible stories, and they're both flawed.

Either she's a decent doctor who got through med-school a few years early, and in her residency somehow stumbled onto Atlantis and into the position of head of medicine without any real experience, and turned out, luckily, to be amazingly good at medicine and administration.

In which case I cry bad writing, because it would be criminally irresponsible to put an untried doctor in charge of Atlantis. Yes, she's working out now. But why did she get the job to begin with? Why does the staff think she's doing a great job before they've ever been tested in a crisis? I've never worked at a hospital, but I have worked in academic environments, and when a new director comes in, people are usually suspicious, especially if that person's an unproven quantity. Did Keller buy everyone off with chocolate or what?

(Honestly, have you ever heard of a 26 year old doctor heading up a hospital, or a department? From my understanding, most 26 year olds are still in med school!)

Or, Keller has another story: that she was an incredibly gifted prodigy who aced med school, then whipped through her internship and residency and trained intensively in neurosurgery and a variety of other disciplines (pediatrics? she seems to like kids) with what had to be obsessive devotion, to accrue the experience you're saying she must have in only a few years.

In which case I cry bad writing, because that's an interesting story that they have never mentioned. Why was she so driven? Why does she act so nervous and diffident when she must have spent her life standing up to people older than her, convincing them that she could do it despite her age? Why, when Elizabeth was reassuring her that she could do it, did Elizabeth not say, "After all, you were the youngest doctor ever to pass the Johns Hopkins program" (or whatever)? Heck, why does Keller ever need reassurance - how could she possibly make it that far, that young, without buttloads of self-confidence? Also, I've heard Keller called "ordinary," but by this story, she is anything but - she is absolutely extraordinary. So why does she call herself a "regular doctor" and why doesn't Elizabeth refute that?

I'm holding Keller to a different standard than Carson because Carson is not that unusual a pick for a hospital director. He's on the young side, but he's not strikingly so. Keller is very, unusually young for her position, but the show's never explained why, and not a single character has ever questioned her suitability. There's no other character on the show that I can think of that, at first glance, I wonder how they possibly got their job. Except Keller. And I maintain it's bad writing that the writers have never bothered to address this question.

(Or else they could just have her mention off-hand that she's a very, very young-looking 35, though she really doesn't act it...at least it would shut my questions up!)

Re: second part

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

--Oh, and we love a good argument, as long as it stays friendly! I'm not taking it personally - actually I'm finding it convenient for clarifying my feelings; we sort of are going around in circles, but I think I'm spiraling closer to a central truth.

Though if you're feeling pressured, or if it's going to spoil your enjoyment of the show, or if I'm pissing you off - *please* say something! Friendshipper & I had to back off because it was getting to be too much for both of us.

...you're a lawyer in RL though, no? Or something of the sort? because in my experience the only one who enjoys a debate more than a lawyer is a philosopher...!

Re: second part

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

--er, sorry for the triple comments, I just, I keep feeling like I'm not stating myself clearly. The problem I think (I keep changing my mind!) I'm seeing with Keller is that fundamentally, I cannot make her character concept make sense. I cannot understand how someone becomes an incredibly skilled and experienced doctor at a very young age, while being so personally unsure and always in need of reassurance.

I think it's because I'm approaching her from a fic perspective - I keep trying to get into her head, and I cannot figure her out well enough to do so. If she were more self-confident, I could understand how she made it this far so young. Or if she were older, I could believe that thanks to her ability she gradually rose through the ranks of medicine, accruing experience over time. But I cannot reconcile her youth with her experience. The reason I am so desperate for answers is that I have failed to invent any backstory for her that makes sense to me with what we've been given - so I am absolutely desperate for the writers to give us one.

...I know this isn't going to help my argument any, because obviously this backstory is evident to many of you, since you don't see any contradiction and her story seems clear to you. But I honestly can't see it!

Re: My part two to your part one...

[gnine.livejournal.com]

Um...

I'll give you that probably some of what Rodney does, Zelenka could manage. But see, I don't in anyway see that as diminishing Rodney's intelligence. Carter and Rodney are said to be the two most intelligent people in two galaxies. Zelenka is maybe one step below that. So if he can do most of what Rodney does, it doesn't make it any less amazing, it just means that Altantis has two of the most brilliant people around. They're both super smart, amazing! Rodney is just a bit better. Which there is evidence for:

Zelenka doesn't always think quite a quickly as Rodney, or as creatively. In "Duet", he's very jumpy off-world, is working 'round the clock on the solution, but it's Rodney, with his already taxed brain, that comes up with the answer. In "Seige 3", when they give the estimates of how long they think the adjustments will take, Zelenka, who's usually very honest, who doesn't seem inflate the difficulty of things to make himself look better, says "A week". Rodney says a "couple of hours". Rodney's the one who's right. Likely because it WOULD have taken Zelenka, on his own, a week. Rodney, a couple of hours.

Now a list of all the times Rodney saves the day. Yes, maybe Zelenka could have done some of them. I list some feats that Zelenka helps with. So there's three people in the galaxy, Carter, Rodney, and Zelenka who could do it. That's...um...still pretty damn unique. Also, I include in this list times that Rodney is perhaps not doing science, but thinks really damn quickly on his feet, coming up with problems/solutions faster than anyone else. Because that's a lot of genius as well, not just how well you think, but how quickly, how fast you perceive things. IQ tests are traditionally timed, after all.

"38 Minutes": Rodney keeps coming up with ideas, *before* the whole team of scientists. Zelenka assists, though they're working in totally different environments, Zelenka has the ability to experiment while Rodney doesn't have the luxury.

"Underground": Mention of building a nuclear device when he was in grade 6. Figures out the doors on the Wraith ship when no one else has a clue.

"The Storm/The Eye": Rodney and Zelenka together, two smartest people, come up with the solution. Rodney implements it, then has to troubleshoot/do repairs under extreme conditions. Also, very fast thinking when he puts his hand on the radio to let Sheppard overhear, and when he bluffs his way through the shield not working to get Koyla to leave.

"Hot Zone": First to, very quickly, come to the conclusion it’s a disease, first to diagnose it and the one who comes up with the immediate solution.

"Sanctuary": Only one who realizes Chaya is not what she seems, and the one to realize that she's an Ancient.

"Letters From Pegasus": He has the psycho amazing compression program, and is the one who has the idea to send all that they know home. Which leads the SGC to know they're in trouble and send a rescue mission.

"The Siege, part 1": fixes the satellite, Grodin says he's the best one at it. Grodin dies, but they make those repairs awful damn fast and are able to take out one of the hive ships.

"The Siege, part 2": Rodney and Zelenka fix the nukes. They also figure out how to fly the puddlejumpers with the chair, but the loss of power makes that plan impossible

"The Siege, part 3": Rodney predicts where the Wraith ships will be (he makes a joke about if his math is correct...which since the ships appear where he predicts, he's RIGHT), John, him and Zelenka, bouncing ideas off each other come up with the plan to convert shield to cloak. Rodney himself comes up with the plan to fake the self-destruct and correctly calculates when it's safe to convert shield to cloak. And as stated above, seems able to do this conversion faster than Zelenka. If there was no Rodney, and it took Zelenka the week he says, there's a question of whether the shield might have held out.

(Continued in next part...)

Part two of Rodney is AWESOME..

[gnine.livejournal.com]

"Intruder": Rodney figures out its sabotage, and then that it's a virus, and what they have to do to get rid of it.

'Duet": Only his and Cadman's lives on the line, but it's his solution that saves them.

"Condemned": He's the one able to fix the DHD in the jumper, and then quickly fix the ship so it can fire.

"Aurora": He's the one that figures out how to tap into the system. And how to navigate it VERY quickly, considering the point he bops out of it, takes out the guards and opens the cell door.

"The Lost Boys": He can fix the Wraith dart, and create an interface, with Ford's little genius boy couldn't.

"Epiphany": Figures out the time dilation problem VERY quickly, and though Teer in the end lets them out, if she hadn't, he could have easily disabled it and gotten them all home.

"Critical Mass": Immediately comes up with the solution of using a beacon to fool the Wraith, figures out the actual problem and that it's not really a bomb.

"Inferno": Um...you say Neerna could have done it? They've had the ship awhile and couldn't figure out how to TURN IT ON. Rodney is the one who first realizes the danger of the situation, and the one with the solution.

"Irresistible": Is the one that figures out what Lucien's doing, just doesn't get a chance to figure out the cure before he's affected as well.

"Sateda": Figures out how to find where Ronon is in the galaxy. His idea to use the cloaked puddlejumper to shoot the Wraith.

"Progeny": It's his plan that lets them escape, he finds the fatal flaw and it's his plan on how to blow up the city.

"Phantoms": Pretty much fixes the device, even while under the influence. Teyla even says he was almost finished. He's the one who realized how badly it was affecting them all.

"The Return 1": Made the macro for the gate bridge. It suggests several times that it's very complicated. Realizes what the blip on the scanner means, it's an ancient ship. Reprograms the gate bridge.

"The Return 2": Entirely his plan that saves the day. Both the real plan AND the decoy, fake them out part.

"Echoes": Finds the whale data, is able to fix the machine that lets them communicate with the whales and realizes what it really means and what they're warning them about.

"First Strike": His and John's plan simultaneously to make the city fly. No one else, even Zelenka, thinks of it. He's the one able to implement it.

And part three cause he's just that awesome!

[gnine.livejournal.com]

Lifeline": His idea to use the puddlejumper hyperdrive (which he created in Tao, but I didn't add it, cause I was guessing you wouldn't acknowledge anything he did while under the influence of the device) to get them to the planet. His idea to convert the cloak into a replicator shield (repeating, again, his own idea, when he did it in return). His idea/discovery of how to reactivate the replicators (which in the end, obviously turned out to be a BIG problem. But they state outright, that for a while it's help weaken the Wraith. A Lot. )

"Doppelganger": You'll probably protest this one, but it really seems it's his idea to shock it in the end. He has the 'send me back in" and then we don't know who actually realized it. But considering how confidently Rodney is shouting that it's vulnerable to electric shock, it's a pretty good bet its his own plan.

"Tabula Rasa": His quick thinking to video himself and leave a message to find Teyla is what ultimately saves them in the end.

"The Seer": He realizes Todd is holding back on the code, not playing it straight.

"This Mortal Coil": His replicated self, first to realize somethings wrong/get suspicious. He's able to figure out how to program the device to locate all the replicator ships.

"BAMSR": Entirely, 100% his plan on how to get rid of the replicators.

"Spoils of War": figures out there's a secret base. (with Ronon's accidental help)

"Harmony": Fixes the mini-drone device under extreme pressure/extreme circumstances.

"Midway": Figures out the gate bridge has been tampered with, reprograms it yet again.

"The Last Man": Oh, you know, just INVENTS A NEW MATH AN SAVES THE ENTIRE GALAXY. When everyone else gives up. We don't see what Zelenka does. Jeannie doesn't think it can be done. Rodney does it anyways.

"Daedalus Variations": Figures out how to undo what even other Rodney's couldn't do. Sorta working on a suggestion from John...but it's more of a random comment. Also, in another universe, invented the device to begin with. Flawed, perhaps, but still brilliant.

"Tracker": Fixes an entirely alien device, not even ancient, while walking and avoiding Wraith, in a few minutes.

And this doesn't include some of the times that yes, other people have ideas. But he still is the one to implement them. Yeah, I can have the idea to build a cool looking plane. Doesn't mean I can DO it. He can make 'real' ideas that would be just cool theories to most other people.

Re: And part three cause he's just that awesome!

[sholio]

And this doesn't include some of the times that yes, other people have ideas. But he still is the one to implement them.

Whereas elsewhere, you refuse to give Keller credit for implementing a solution if anyone else had a hand in it. Keller fixed Carson's fatal illness AND came up with a solution to the Wraith problem that even the Ancients hadn't been able to think of. But you won't credit those as brilliant ideas because somewhere along the way, she relied on other people's research.

... Well, yes. That's what scientists DO. That's what all the characters do on this show; it's pretty rare for one person to save the day singlehandedly. So let's look at just a few of your examples above. "38 Minutes" - Rodney didn't come up with the solution that saved the day; Kavanagh did. None of Rodney's ideas went anywhere. Nor did Rodney implement the solution that saved them. "Storm/Eye" - Zelenka, Elizabeth and John all helped Rodney in the beginning, and his "plan" was mostly a stalling tactic to give JOHN time to get to the control room. "Hot Zone" - Rodney and Carson were working together on that one. Would Rodney have had a breakthrough without leaning on Carson and Biro's medical/autopsy expertise? I really don't see it. "Duet" - even Rodney admitted that he was largely working off Zelenka's efforts. "Phantoms" - Rodney started fixing the device, but he never finished. Teyla had to finish it. "First Strike" - as you yourself pointed out, his AND JOHN's plan, not Rodney being singlehandedly brilliant. "Last Man" - Rodney had help from Jeannie. Tabula Rasa ... I'm kind of boggling at this ...

"Tabula Rasa": His quick thinking to video himself and leave a message to find Teyla is what ultimately saves them in the end.

You won't give Keller credit for saving the day in "Seed" or "Shrine" because she didn't do every last bit of it by herself -- but you give RODNEY credit for saving the day in Tabula Rasa by recording a message?! He wasn't the one who did the medical work (Keller), wasn't the one who came up with the idea (partly Ronon, mostly Keller), wasn't the one who implemented the idea (Ronon and Teyla); we don't even know for sure if leaving the message was Rodney's idea in the first place! Using the same logic that you've been using elsewhere on Keller, it could EASILY have been John or Keller or Teyla or Ronon who suggested to Rodney the whole idea of leaving a message when things started going bad. We never SAW that part.

I'm not going to go down the whole list because I'd be here all day, but I have similar counter-examples for most of these. Rodney worked off someone else's research, or he implemented someone else's idea, or he worked in tandem with someone else to accomplish the plan. That's because that's the norm on this show (and more believable, too) -- TEAMWORK generally saves the day, whether between the teammates or between the various medical and scientific characters on the show. Yet, with Keller, any hint that she's not doing it all by herself is enough to invalidate her intelligence or expertise in the episode. I'm not saying Rodney doesn't deserve credit for many of the things he's done -- just that if you apply the same standards to Rodney AND Keller, either Keller comes off looking a lot more brilliant, or Rodney comes off looking much worse.

Yeah, I can have the idea to build a cool looking plane. Doesn't mean I can DO it. He can make 'real' ideas that would be just cool theories to most other people.

Like, say ... doing surgery in a cave with hand tools? Does this mean that you're conceding Keller's surgical brilliance in being able to implement John's crazy plan in "Shrine"? Excellent! :)

Part one of my reply to your reply to horridp--OMG AHHH! ^_-

[gnine.livejournal.com]

Keller fixed Carson's fatal illness AND came up with a solution to the Wraith problem that even the Ancients hadn't been able to think of. But you won't credit those as brilliant ideas because somewhere along the way, she relied on other people's research.

Okay, you, horridporrid and derry667 all keep saying her brilliant, creative solutions for both Carson and the Wraith. And this is the problem I keep having. You say I dismiss it cause she had a "bit of help" along the way. But that's where I feel like I'm watching a different show. Because where's the "a bit" part. Rodney states, outright, that he got most, possibly all of Michael's data.


McKAY: Michael's database! There's a large chunk of it, maybe the whole thing too. I mean, we've got base schematics, medical research information, list of planets. You know what this means? --Gateworld transcripts

It wasn't the case that Michael was working towards solutions and Keller completed his research. Yes, if that were the case, power to her, then. I'll totally bow to her brilliance. But that's not the case. It was finished, it was tested, and it was PROVED TO WORK, before Keller ever, once, got even a hint that it existed.

Michael had Carson alive for almost two years. His cells did not begin to degrade until he stopped receiving Michael's formula. Because Michael had a viable, completed, working solution to that problem. Keller had to go through Michael's research to find the solution, and then follow the recipe and cook it up. How is that her success? She seems hesitant to test it on Carson, makes sense. She can't be 100% sure she got the right formula out of Michael's data base. I'm sure he had to go through plenty of variations and research and testing before he hit on the right one. Yes, so if her Wraith is a bit shoddy, or Michael's data was in code or whatever, she might have nicked the wrong formula. Wanting to be sure she's not using the wrong thing, total sense. Creating something brilliant with a "bit of help"? I'm sorry, but I don't see it. Give me a case on my list of Rodney's solutions that someone else did every single step, and he just flicked the switch at the end.

Actually, you'll probably say that about "38 minutes". You said Rodney didn't even help with implementing the solution...except somehow the drive pods got retracted. Which was Zelenka and Rodney working together. Kavanagh's only contribution is the suggestion to open the hatch to give them some forward momentum. (which, and xparrot will totally support me on, I started screaming at the screen "pop the hatch, the release of air will give you momentum" the second they said they had none. A good 30 seconds before any of the scientists thought of it...clearly I watch waaaaaay too much sci-fi ^_-). His idea comes only *after* the main problem, the drive pods, was fixed. Zelenka did isolate the area Rodney was supposed to be working in to find the retraction device. Rodney still had to try some stuff, but you're right, it's more trial and error at that point. Similar to what Keller was doing with Michael's data to find Carson's fix. But I think "38 minutes" was one of my weakest examples. While you say the bit with fixing Carson is one of her most brilliant.

Keller's amazing solution, that the Ancients hadn't even thought of (why not, does beg the question, oh silly Ancients) but um.... :

MICHAEL: I'll admit, my early attempts were a little ... crude, but that's all changed now. I've refined the retrovirus to create the perfect balance – ability well beyond any normal human but without the one weakness that will be the downfall of the Wraith.

(He lifts his right hand and holds it up, showing her his palm. It no longer has a feeding slit on it.)

MICHAEL: The need to feed.


No longer has the slit. As in, this research is done, complete, finito. That's in "Kindred". Keller hasn't been working on it yet at all. All of it is done for her. She is not finishing what Michael started (Michael was finishing what Carson started. Excuse me, Michael FINISHED what Carson started). What did Keller have left to do on it. Again, sift through Michael's data.

(TBC)

Re: Part one of my reply to your reply to horridp--OMG AHHH! ^_-

[gnine.livejournal.com]

"Last Man" - Rodney had help from Jeannie.

It's Rodney's idea to begin with. He clearly has most of what he needs to do envisioned when he's talking to the dying Keller cause he knows he's gonna be inventing a new math. The one shot of Jeannie we see is when Rodney is still quite young. And he out right says, she gave up on him. He kept toiling, alone. Figuring out, alone. So an idea from him that what his from conception to close, that Jeannie maybe corrected his math on for a few years before giving up on him is the equivalent of Keller being presented with a finished solution, one that she knows for a fact works (Teyla SAW Michael's finished, completed work. She not working on a hope, like Rodney does, a hope that everyone else, even his own brilliant sister eventually insists is impossible and gives up on him.) and tweaking it a bit. With the help of other scientists, because Carson mentions another scientist (Dr. Lynch.and his team) that he's giving his research on Michael's subjects' to in "Whispers."

He wasn't the one who did the medical work (Keller), wasn't the one who came up with the idea (possibly Ronon), wasn't the one who implemented the idea (Ronon and Teyla);


I actually wasn't meaning to say Rodney was the only one who saved the day there. (Though he DID help, he's the one who came up with and implemented a way to disperse the cure). I was trying to list *his* actions in the ep. When I used "ultimately", which, yeah, neechan scolded me, I totally used it wrong, what I was trying to say was that everyone each contributed, but in the end, the way the episode is shot, the story unfolds, its the tablet with the "find this woman" that carries the plot forward throughout. But I concede to you completely: a total teamwork ep, each person having their brilliant moment. Though, and I know you'll jump on me about my anti-Keller bias, but if you say Keller was the one with the *idea* about the disease, you undermine Ronon's awesomeness. He's the one that notes the inconsistency, that it's only the Pegasus natives not getting sick. He's the one that brings it to her attention, twice. Then she takes his suggestions, finds the exact disease. Medical skills in analyzing the blood quickly, yes, but the creativity goes to Ronon on this one, I think.

Does this mean that you're conceding Keller's surgical brilliance in being able to implement John's crazy plan in "Shrine"?

Yes, I'll concede. But only half-way. *If* she had done the whole surgery, completed it successfully? 100% the same. And I wish the writers had let her do it. But instead, she drills one(or two, it's hard to tell) holes and that's it. No diggin' in the gray matter, no careful removal, no skilled surgery techniques, just a steady hand. The parasite crawls out on its own. Humans have been performing and surviving drilled holes in the skull (trepanning) for thousands of years. With nothing so precise as a power drill or other sterilized medical tools. Complicated brain surgery, does require a LOT of skill. But the writers don't let her demonstrate that skill, they cut off her moment of glory.

Closest equivalent example I can come up with is Rodney in "Siege II", using the chair to fly the jumper. Yes, Rodney doesn't do that all on his own, just as Jeannie has to modify the scanner and John has to tell Keller to use the drill and the scanner, etc. Rodney, along with Zelenka's help (like Keller needs an assistant, John, to help her with the drilling) *seems* to get the chair to work. We're not 100% sure it's gonna be a success. In theory looks good, but there are a lot of things that could go wrong. Just like in theory, Keller can perform that surgery, but we're not positive she's gonna succeed. *She's* not sure. The chair's generator loses power, so Rodney's idea never gets proven one way or another. John and the Daedalus have to step in. The parasite crawls out of Rodney's head, running from the radiation, so we're never given proof that she *was* capable of performing that surgery. *Maybe* she could have, maybe not. Maybe the chair/jumper would have worked and no suicide run needed, maybe not. We. Don't. Know. In either case. Not a be-all display for either of them.

(TBC...sorta?)

Re: Part three...Lists...

[gnine.livejournal.com]

TEAMWORK generally saves the day

You're right. Totally. And I love the teaminess. I agree, I wasn't being fair to Keller on that front.

just that if you apply the same standards to Rodney AND Keller, either Keller comes off looking a lot more brilliant, or Rodney comes off looking much worse.

So what I want to do, and I'd love for you, and the others to jump in as well, on either one, is to compile a list, like what I did with Rodney earlier, for both of them (just looking at 4th/5th season for Rodney, cause Keller came in then, so it's only fair). I want all the "brilliant" moments, the "unique" they've accomplished, other-inspired/shared/etc. or not. 100% concrete moments, not supposition. What they gives us/SHOWS us.

But, and here's the thing I know you'll all protest: I don't want the list to include any skill that any competent ER doctor/surgeon would be expected to perform. Likewise, for Rodney, nothing any random computer wiz/hacker/utilities man could perform. Because that's the thing that xparrot and I keep coming back to(she did a reaaaally long reply to her own essay relating to this). Yes, she's a competent doctor. But she's 26, young, inexperienced, and at least at the beginning, not particularly keen on the job. WHAT is she doing there? Why *her* and not a much more senior, experienced, possibly politically connected (seeing as that's how Woolsey got his job...and how Elizabeth originally did to) doctor. There are MANY, MANY competent doctors out there. You've probably met a few, been treated by some. There are many people that can hack a computer or fix a power generator. But someone who can program in an alien language, work with nanite technology, etc. Or (in Carson's case) someone who can discover a very rare gene and retro-fit a virus to map that gene on others? Not so much.

While making my list, I am gonna try my damnedest not to be biased, either way. I really, really REALLY am. Stop me, correct me, if I fail at that.

Re: Part one of my reply to your reply to horridp--OMG AHHH! ^_-

[sholio]

Oh, well then, let's see what the transcripts have to say about Rodney "single-handedly" saving the day in BAMSR!

McKAY: It is this recent discovery of the essential duality of this particular stem of the nano sub-code that has opened up a whole new world of possibilities when it comes to the expedient and permanent deactivation of the inter-nanite bonds.

Rodney has the code that runs the Replicators. The Ancients wrote it. All he had to do was use it. There's no "brilliance" in BAMSR at all, just Rodney running a computer program that was written thousands of years ago.

But, you say! He had to figure out what he had and how to use it with the materials at hand! Well, that's what Keller had to do with Michael's research. If medicine were as easy as reading a list of instructions, we'd all be brain surgeons.

You are also making a huge assumption that the "medical research" in Michael's database contained explicit instructions for building the cure for Carson's ailment. NO ONE EVER SAID THAT. For all we know, all they got were bits and pieces of Michael's notes. Actually, that was the implication I'd gotten -- that they don't have every bit of research Michael ever did, all written up in neat detail. What they've got is a huge and fragmentary heap of notes that they're trying to sift through and adapt to work with their equipment and materials. And even having the formula for the cure is a HUGE step from being able to reverse-engineer a version of it that will work.

HOW was what Rodney did in BAMSR with the nanites different from what Keller did in Seed and Queen? He's still taking someone else's technology/breakthrough, trying to understand it and reverse-engineer his own version (with a lot of help from Zelenka, I might add). Why is BAMSR an example of Rodney's brilliance where Seed is not an example of Keller's? What's the difference?

Re: Part one of my reply to your reply to horridp--OMG AHHH! ^_-

[gnine.livejournal.com]

Rodney has the code that runs the Replicators. The Ancients wrote it. All he had to do was use it. There's no "brilliance" in BAMSR at all, just Rodney running a computer program that was written thousands of years ago.

Um...No. Keller has the genetic code of the Wraith. They've had it for a while. And if her solution came from that. Same thing.

has opened up a whole new world of possibilities

The Replicator code was never intended to be used in the way Rodney twists it. He takes one possibility, out of many, an exploits it to do something crazy. Like what CARSON did to the Wraith genetic code, modifying it in a way no one expected. Turning them human, and later leading to taking away the feeding mechanism.

Keller took Michael's/Carson's research, and exactly emulated it/copied it from his notes. If Michael had been trying for something else with the feeding. Maybe making them feed twice as fast, or feed with both hands, or from animals, whatever, that'd be one thing. She'd be altering his research, then. Taking it in a NEW, creative, brilliant direction. But she's NOT. She's looking for exactly the same end result that Michael already obtained.

And by Keller, I mean the medical staff. And by Rodney, I mean Rodney. WHY do I make this distinction? Because the SHOW does. When she's reporting to Woolsey, she uses 'we'. When she's presenting her plan to Todd, she uses 'we'. And, before you jump on me going "oh, but she's being all humble and modest", I offer, again, further concrete evidence from the show: Carson mentions giving his notes on Michael's lab, in "Whipsers" to Doctor Lynch(?) and his team. NOT to Keller. And, may I point out, that after six months out of the game, it's still Carson they ask along to come check out the lab and Michael's research, even though he's not part of Atlantis (seemingly) anymore, and he's on his way out the door. NOT KELLER.

And why do I say 'Rodney' in BAMSR. Does he get help perfecting and implementing his plan. From Zelenka, from Todd, from Fran? Certainly. But is the brilliant flash, the amazing, out of the box, out of the blue, not been done before, not based on anyone's already realized creations idea completely his. YES. No, this is not supposition. Because we SEE IT. He's running up against a wall, and then *boom*. We see the moment. He spins in his chair, *ding* lightbulb (and looks utterly adorable doing it). And others think he's crazy at first, and he has to convince them. No outside help there. And it's his idea to use the replicator module. And it's he who gets it working, finally. Alone. We know this, because Zelenka leaves the room. Are they not happy at first that he created Fran, yes? Does anything go wrong with that part of the plan? No. There are two minor hiccups, that first Fran, and then he and Sam together quickly solve it. The rest, HIM. And we see it.

And now bed...(oh god, it's 5:30 am...work tomorrow...Oops :-p), that list I mentioned, tomorrow...